By Jody K. Biehl in Berlin
In the past four months, six Muslim women living in Berlin have been brutally murdered by family members. Their crime? Trying to break free and live Western lifestyles. Within their communities, the killers are revered as heroes for preserving their family dignity. How can such a horrific and shockingly archaic practice be flourishing in the heart of Europe? The deaths have sparked momentary outrage, but will they change the grim reality for Muslim women?
Hatin Surucu just wanted to live her own life.
Instead, she became Berlin's latest victim of honor killings. Her Turkish Muslim brothers allegedly gunned her down for adopting Western ways.
The shots came from nowhere and within minutes the young Turkish mother standing at the Berlin bus stop was dead.
A telephone call from a relative had brought her to this cold, unforgiving place. She thought she would only be gone for a few minutes and wore a light jacket in the freezing February wind. She had left her five-year-old son asleep in his bed. He awoke looking for his mother, who, like many Turkish women in Germany, harbored a secret life of fear, courage and, ultimately, grief. Now her little boy has his own tragedy to bear: His mother, Hatin Surucu, was not the victim of random violence, but likely died at the hands of her own family in what is known as an "honor killing."
Hatin's crime, it appears, was the desire to lead a normal life in her family's adopted land. The vivacious 23-year-old beauty, who was raised in Berlin, divorced the Turkish cousin she was forced to marry at age 16. She also discarded her Islamic head scarf, enrolled in a technical school where she was training to become an electrician and began dating German men. For her family, such behavior represented the ultimate shame -- the embrace of "corrupt" Western ways.
Days after the crime, police arrested her three brothers, ages 25, 24 and 18. The youngest of the three allegedly bragged to his girlfriend about the Feb. 7 killing. At her funeral, Hakin's Turkish-Kurdish parents draped their only daughter's casket in verses from the Koran and buried her according to Muslim tradition. Absent of course, were the brothers, who were in jail.
The crime might be easier to digest if it had been an archaic anomaly, but five other Muslim women have been murdered in Berlin during the past four months by their husbands or partners for besmirching the family's Muslim honor.
Two of them were stabbed to death in front of their young children, one was shot, one strangled and a fifth drowned. It seems hard to fathom, but in the middle of democratic Western Europe -- in Germany, a nation where pacifism is almost a universal mantra -- murderous macho patriotism not only exists but also appears to be thriving. It may even be Germany's liberalism -- and its post World War II fear of criticizing minority cultures -- that has encouraged ultra-religious families to settle here.
The problem is that much of this insular and ultra-religious world is out of public view, often hidden in inner-city apartments where the most influential links to the outside world are satellite dishes that receive Turkish and Arabic television and the local mosque. Tens of thousands of Turkish women live behind these walls of silence, in homes run by husbands many met on their wedding day and ruled by the ever-present verses of the Koran. In these families, loyalty and honor are elevated virtues and women are treated little better than slaves, unseen by society and often unnoticed or ignored by their German neighbors.
To get what they want, these women have to run. They have to change their names, their passports, even their hair color and break with the families they often love, but simply can no longer obey.
Turkish women who have fled their husbands and violent marriages and live in a shelter take a stroll in Munich's Olympic Park. The women, activists say, live in constant fear that their husbands or families will find them and abuse or kill them.Precise statistics on how many women die every year in such honor killings are hard to come by, as many crimes are never reported, said Myria Boehmecke of the Tuebingen-based women's group Terre des Femmes which, among other things, tries to protect Muslim girls and women from oppressive families.
The Turkish women's organization Papatya has documented 40 instances of honor killings in Germany since 1996. Examples include a Darmstadt girl whose two brothers pummelled her to death with a hockey stick in April 2004 after they learned she had slept with her boyfriend. In Augsburg in April, a man stabbed his wife and 7-year-old daughter because the wife was having an affair. In December 2003, a Tuebingen father strangled his 16-year-old daughter and threw her body into a lake because she had a boyfriend. Bullets, knives, even axes and gasoline are the weapons of choice.
The crime list compiled by Papatya is an exercise in horror. And the sad part, said Boehmecke, is that it is far from complete. "We'll never really know how many victims there are. Too often these crimes go unreported."
In many cases, fathers -- and sometimes even mothers -- single out their youngest son to do the killing, Boehmecke said, "because they know minors will get lighter sentences from German judges." In some cases, these boys are revered by their community and fellow inmates as "honor heroes" -- a dementedly skewed status they carry with them for the rest of their lives. Currently, six boys are serving time in Berlin's juvenile prison for honor killings. "In a way, these boys are victims, too," she said. Sometimes they are forced to kill their favorite sister.
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I thank God Almighty for having me born as a Muslim not in these Arabs or some Muslim countries such as Jordan or Turkey.
I recently read yet another news about how a young woman was killed when she tried to escape from her family prostitution ring; she was made a prostitute. Like in some other similiar cases where the women tries to seek justice or freedom for themselves, she will be killed by her own flesh and blood. And the ones that will do the honour must be their own brother. All in the name of family honour and a form of 'cleansing'.
As usual, like in all man dominated countries, this young woman's brother was caught. The most disheartening yet true part is the sentence behind bars are for mere two years!
I you ask me, i would say life as a woman in these countries is very stifling and subservient. Like known fact, man have egos. But when the egos got too big for their head, plus with some 'known' attitude especially from certain clans, my only word to these lots are 'total male chauvanist pig'. These are the action that gave the religion bad reputations. These are also the people that think they are above women in everything except for bearing children and mending the house.
And amazingly although the human has been evolved and now living in this milleneium, the governments of these countries usually will not put emphasis on well being of their.
And Saudi Arabia is still a joke to me.
It show how shallow and silly their thinking is that women are created probably just to fulfill their sexual needs and bear offsprings besides staying at home to do nothing at all. What got their brain's blocked when they adapted the law against women driver since i dont know when.
There was a recent case where the daughter of a family drove the father and brother to the hospital when their house went ablaze. According to her statement to the press, the ER staff were stunned to see a woman coming out from the driver's seat.
The father was the one who thought her to drive in their own compound.
Well, at least the father has got more brains than some decision maker.
And do the ruler of the country thought that every one of them are as rich as him and can afford a driver.
Imagine if the household got more and three working and studying women with school going kids.....hhhmmmmmm......
It was also said that single working woman or student needed to fork-out around eight hundred to 1500 Riyals per month to pay driver to drive them around. Well, i know that this is a country i would not want to resides in giving all very strict restrictions against women. I would feel not second class but life is like a caged bird.
Now, it makes me wonder wouldn't these people are all Muslims?
Why did the Prophet Muhammad (saw) married a woman trader when he was one of her worker in his early years? It obviously shows that woman are allowed to do other things than being the man's pride and possession.
What would it take for their women to be living life to the fullest......
Thursday 11 September 2008
Saturday 6 September 2008
LOPSIDED PERSON
"I really have to admire parents who have maintained their children in the national schools, especially when they are not Malays. My daughter spent eight months in a national school before we had to pull her out. We had become increasingly alarmed at the type of racial-toned language she had started to use. Obviously she was being indoctrinated every day with the idea of racial superiority of only one community, hers. We felt we could not counter this effectively ourselves so eventually transfered her to a private school. It's not perfect and we were very sad to have to do it but we really didn't want her to grow up in that toxic environment.".....
Browsing thru some blogs i found this quite intriguing post on the quite sensitive (as they the racist put it) situation; racial divide in this country.
The writer of this post is a well known person. The father is a very prominent and respected person. Being someone's prominent offspring, one would likely get to be prominent themselves naturally due to the unavoidable (lime) light.
What i found to be interesting is that her posting on the 'deformity' of the national school.
Probably this was done with her comparing her school-days time to the current ones. Being so much far apart in age, i must say, and having left school not so long ago which is in late 80s', i must say again, that this blogger is quite exaggerative in her comprehension about the national school.
This blogger should just admit it that being from where she came from, it is just not the "in-thing" to send their children to ordinary school (national school). People know and read about well off people and even the education minister himself are sending their children to international or private school for the "elitness" of it.
Thus is does make sense that people with their "social standing" would not and will try to avoid sending their kids to ordinary school, which is Malaysia public school.
I know few of these lot of people personally and even have relations doing so.
But what im trying to establish here is why on earth this blogger mentioned "the type of racial-toned language" that the daughter uttered after spending ONLY eight months in national school.
My questions are;
1. The daughter is quite old to be just starting school and where did she go to school before that eight months? Is she having any sort of problem mixing around thus making her hop school?
2. How can she pick-up those "racial-toned" language for that short of a time?
3. Meaning all those successful people in Malaysia and all those best students with Dean's list who studied in universities here and abroad came from "private school" and not national school?
My prognosis on what this blogger is trying to imply here are as follows;
1. Her daughter must have a been a frustrated kid due to the parents strict rules trying hard to mould their daughter to fit to their own 'dream-daughter' person.
2. Due to her retaliation towards the parents, she became rebellious and that is why she picked up all these 'racial-toned' language for such a short period of time in national school. Because, if this blogger is trying to imply that the 'superior' race and teachers are the reasons that the daughter are being 'indoctrinated that her's is the superior race", it just make no sense at all.
I have been in school too, where the majority is the other race than mine and experience the 80s and 90s which isn't far from the millennium. I do not think children of school going age would be as racial as the blogger's assumption.
And i do not think that its the teachers because besides the short period of each subject; the teacher wouldn't have time to incite any 'racial-toned' understandings amongst the children unless the daughter had been sent to a wrong and very remote national school somewhere in the east-coast where the states are run by an Islamic political party.
3. Lastly, these 'toxic environment' in national school that the one that produces good well-recognised Malaysians locally and abroad. Much much before the "private school" fever hit the market. And do not blame the teachers or school for your children's unfortunate schooling experience.
All you know, she had been picking it up from within.
The blogger also mentioned;
"I realised that perhaps in our schools today, Muslim kids and non-Muslim kids are having very different experiences. The Muslim kids were constantly subject to endless religious classes as well as constant talk about the difference ( and yes, the superiority) between them and their non-Muslim schoolmates. While non-Muslim kids generally have a more 'normal' school life where they are pretty much left alone to pursue all regular school activities so they like school better. "....
Lets get real here.
It is a must for all Muslim students to attend the religious classes, but then how many times and total hours it took per week? It is not even two full hours per week!
And while it is a must to attend those classes in national school, it is however optional for them in private religious classes which is conducted out of the schooling time and all at the parent's discretion.
How can this person claimed that what makes the national school going kids are more racist came from constant talk about the "racial superiority between them and the non-Muslim schoolmates"?
Who the hell would talk about all this racial things when school children are ever too busy with their studies, co-curriculum activities and whatnots.
This blogger assumption on what had turned out of her daughter after going to national school for just eight months is utter nonsense and is a very lopsided point of view.
Browsing thru some blogs i found this quite intriguing post on the quite sensitive (as they the racist put it) situation; racial divide in this country.
The writer of this post is a well known person. The father is a very prominent and respected person. Being someone's prominent offspring, one would likely get to be prominent themselves naturally due to the unavoidable (lime) light.
What i found to be interesting is that her posting on the 'deformity' of the national school.
Probably this was done with her comparing her school-days time to the current ones. Being so much far apart in age, i must say, and having left school not so long ago which is in late 80s', i must say again, that this blogger is quite exaggerative in her comprehension about the national school.
This blogger should just admit it that being from where she came from, it is just not the "in-thing" to send their children to ordinary school (national school). People know and read about well off people and even the education minister himself are sending their children to international or private school for the "elitness" of it.
Thus is does make sense that people with their "social standing" would not and will try to avoid sending their kids to ordinary school, which is Malaysia public school.
I know few of these lot of people personally and even have relations doing so.
But what im trying to establish here is why on earth this blogger mentioned "the type of racial-toned language" that the daughter uttered after spending ONLY eight months in national school.
My questions are;
1. The daughter is quite old to be just starting school and where did she go to school before that eight months? Is she having any sort of problem mixing around thus making her hop school?
2. How can she pick-up those "racial-toned" language for that short of a time?
3. Meaning all those successful people in Malaysia and all those best students with Dean's list who studied in universities here and abroad came from "private school" and not national school?
My prognosis on what this blogger is trying to imply here are as follows;
1. Her daughter must have a been a frustrated kid due to the parents strict rules trying hard to mould their daughter to fit to their own 'dream-daughter' person.
2. Due to her retaliation towards the parents, she became rebellious and that is why she picked up all these 'racial-toned' language for such a short period of time in national school. Because, if this blogger is trying to imply that the 'superior' race and teachers are the reasons that the daughter are being 'indoctrinated that her's is the superior race", it just make no sense at all.
I have been in school too, where the majority is the other race than mine and experience the 80s and 90s which isn't far from the millennium. I do not think children of school going age would be as racial as the blogger's assumption.
And i do not think that its the teachers because besides the short period of each subject; the teacher wouldn't have time to incite any 'racial-toned' understandings amongst the children unless the daughter had been sent to a wrong and very remote national school somewhere in the east-coast where the states are run by an Islamic political party.
3. Lastly, these 'toxic environment' in national school that the one that produces good well-recognised Malaysians locally and abroad. Much much before the "private school" fever hit the market. And do not blame the teachers or school for your children's unfortunate schooling experience.
All you know, she had been picking it up from within.
The blogger also mentioned;
"I realised that perhaps in our schools today, Muslim kids and non-Muslim kids are having very different experiences. The Muslim kids were constantly subject to endless religious classes as well as constant talk about the difference ( and yes, the superiority) between them and their non-Muslim schoolmates. While non-Muslim kids generally have a more 'normal' school life where they are pretty much left alone to pursue all regular school activities so they like school better. "....
Lets get real here.
It is a must for all Muslim students to attend the religious classes, but then how many times and total hours it took per week? It is not even two full hours per week!
And while it is a must to attend those classes in national school, it is however optional for them in private religious classes which is conducted out of the schooling time and all at the parent's discretion.
How can this person claimed that what makes the national school going kids are more racist came from constant talk about the "racial superiority between them and the non-Muslim schoolmates"?
Who the hell would talk about all this racial things when school children are ever too busy with their studies, co-curriculum activities and whatnots.
This blogger assumption on what had turned out of her daughter after going to national school for just eight months is utter nonsense and is a very lopsided point of view.
Friday 5 September 2008
WILL THIS BE SEDITIOUS TOO
Stop believing SMS rumours, Malaysians told
PETALING JAYA: Malaysians should be less gullible and not simply believe rumours spread via SMSes, said Home Minister Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar.
He was responding to two rumours making the rounds Friday that Inspector-General of Police Tan Sri Musa Hassan was in a coma, and that a press conference would be called at 3pm to announce the defection of Barisan Nasional component parties to Pakatan Rakyat.
He said action could be taken against those who started and spread rumours that were seditious and incited the public.(well, will this be under seditious act and the rumour starter will be called to the police station and later court)
“The IGP is very healthy. It is a very mischievous rumour.
We need to find out who did it. I think action can be taken against those spreading the rumour on the head of the police force,” he said.(Datuk Seri, would this also mean you're going to get the Home Minister ban smsing?)
Syed Hamid said he would also check if PKR's weekly newspaper Suara Keadilan had breached publication laws by publishing an article speculating on Musa's health entitled Musa Hassan lumpuh? (Musa Hassan paralysed?). (Now, why on earth is he making such statement?. So, the reporter and the newspaper editor wanted to do silly scoop (at least to get the newspaper selling) Does that mean that these people are going to be called to explain themselves? What is the basis of his statement?)
On the rumours of Barisan parties joining PR, he said it was a move to undermine the unity of the ruling coalition and had resulted in some instability within the country.
“I've heard this rumour for so long. It's spread inside the country and outside. Don't believe anything,” he said.(Datuk, if you've heard it for so long already, why didn't you nail down the rumours starter and letting it floating in the air freely. Is it that you cannot comment further and know nothing on it at all until being asked by the reporter?)
The rumour of the crossover Friday was very strong but it fizzled out after The Star sent out an SMS and posted an online report quoting leaders of Gerakan, PPP, Sabah Progressive Party, Liberal Democratic Party, Parti Bersatu Sabah and UPKO as denying that they had held press conferences to announce they had quit Barisan.
Energy, Water and Telecommunications Deputy Minister Datuk Joseph Salang said the authorities would trace the source of the rumours.
“All phones are registered now so we should be able to do so. The Malaysian Communications and Multimedia Commission (SKMM) can take action against the person who originated the SMS,” he said.
“The police can also take action as the originator of the SMS has an obvious malicious intent.” (There you go.....in Malaysia you cant say something 'hurtful' such as that to avoid you being called to the police station under the Seditious Act for writing or sending slanderous messages to the mass )
***********************************************
PETALING JAYA: Malaysians should be less gullible and not simply believe rumours spread via SMSes, said Home Minister Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar.
He was responding to two rumours making the rounds Friday that Inspector-General of Police Tan Sri Musa Hassan was in a coma, and that a press conference would be called at 3pm to announce the defection of Barisan Nasional component parties to Pakatan Rakyat.
He said action could be taken against those who started and spread rumours that were seditious and incited the public.(well, will this be under seditious act and the rumour starter will be called to the police station and later court)
“The IGP is very healthy. It is a very mischievous rumour.
We need to find out who did it. I think action can be taken against those spreading the rumour on the head of the police force,” he said.(Datuk Seri, would this also mean you're going to get the Home Minister ban smsing?)
Syed Hamid said he would also check if PKR's weekly newspaper Suara Keadilan had breached publication laws by publishing an article speculating on Musa's health entitled Musa Hassan lumpuh? (Musa Hassan paralysed?). (Now, why on earth is he making such statement?. So, the reporter and the newspaper editor wanted to do silly scoop (at least to get the newspaper selling) Does that mean that these people are going to be called to explain themselves? What is the basis of his statement?)
On the rumours of Barisan parties joining PR, he said it was a move to undermine the unity of the ruling coalition and had resulted in some instability within the country.
“I've heard this rumour for so long. It's spread inside the country and outside. Don't believe anything,” he said.(Datuk, if you've heard it for so long already, why didn't you nail down the rumours starter and letting it floating in the air freely. Is it that you cannot comment further and know nothing on it at all until being asked by the reporter?)
The rumour of the crossover Friday was very strong but it fizzled out after The Star sent out an SMS and posted an online report quoting leaders of Gerakan, PPP, Sabah Progressive Party, Liberal Democratic Party, Parti Bersatu Sabah and UPKO as denying that they had held press conferences to announce they had quit Barisan.
Energy, Water and Telecommunications Deputy Minister Datuk Joseph Salang said the authorities would trace the source of the rumours.
“All phones are registered now so we should be able to do so. The Malaysian Communications and Multimedia Commission (SKMM) can take action against the person who originated the SMS,” he said.
“The police can also take action as the originator of the SMS has an obvious malicious intent.” (There you go.....in Malaysia you cant say something 'hurtful' such as that to avoid you being called to the police station under the Seditious Act for writing or sending slanderous messages to the mass )
***********************************************
Thursday 4 September 2008
STUPID APOLOGY
Snippets - Che Det
The Malay leaders especially the current government must have become a total coward lot nowadays. They dont mind losing their dignity and pride.
I do not understand why they must be apologising for one chap "mistake" (as claimed by the other party leaders),it might be just slip of tongue. Why must spin the situation?
The ultimate is when cheap skate deputy PM was spit with 'non-acceptance of apologies rendered'. !
The big headed and opportunistic chinese leaders do not want to accept their apology instead pressing for the big mouth guy to come out of his hiding and offer his sincere apology. Gosh. How embarrassing and lack respect.
First thing is; this Malay guy was breed by Abdullah Badawi, so no surprise that he can come out with such silly statement knowingly that particular race will harp on anything with "racial" sentiment at all (as they understand it or otherwise).
Now, why would Najib so hurriedly making such apologies?Ooopppsss.....wait, i forgot that he is one one Abdullah's minister who'd sometime come out with stupid and ridiculous statement on the nation's general affairs.
No wonder.
This is a sad story for the Malays. It is the beginning of their downfall in their own country, where their forefather's fight for the freedom of this land while the others especially the chinese just wait and watch and most of them are busy joining the Bintang Tiga.
Now they dreamt into making Malaysia the second Singapore. No doubt at all.
Chinese are a very opportunistic people.
They themselves admitted that they thought the Malays and other race in this country are slower than them, thus making it easy for them to snatch whatever is in front of them.
It is the same if one were to compared on how they choose their food. They'll grab and eat everything that moves. Whatever. And we know that the only thing straight about the chinese is their hair.
I do not say this by copying publicly known facts instead I know this because I befriended them. I have been into their families and houses and i feel more comfortable with them rather than my own race.
I know their culture, what they expect in love and lives, how they feel and what they plan to do for their future undertakings.
90% of them doesn't have loyalty to this country.
90% of them wanted to be citizen in another country.
History has told us how the opportunistic chinese managed to raised from just being coolies in Singapore to what they are now. This a a very dangerous species of human kind. They will do anything and everything to get to what they dream getting or even fighting for their rights when they don't have much to fight.
They are the Asian jews.
The Malays will be doomed by this race.
Like how doomed the Malays economically in their own land.
The Malay leaders especially the current government must have become a total coward lot nowadays. They dont mind losing their dignity and pride.
I do not understand why they must be apologising for one chap "mistake" (as claimed by the other party leaders),it might be just slip of tongue. Why must spin the situation?
The ultimate is when cheap skate deputy PM was spit with 'non-acceptance of apologies rendered'. !
The big headed and opportunistic chinese leaders do not want to accept their apology instead pressing for the big mouth guy to come out of his hiding and offer his sincere apology. Gosh. How embarrassing and lack respect.
First thing is; this Malay guy was breed by Abdullah Badawi, so no surprise that he can come out with such silly statement knowingly that particular race will harp on anything with "racial" sentiment at all (as they understand it or otherwise).
Now, why would Najib so hurriedly making such apologies?Ooopppsss.....wait, i forgot that he is one one Abdullah's minister who'd sometime come out with stupid and ridiculous statement on the nation's general affairs.
No wonder.
This is a sad story for the Malays. It is the beginning of their downfall in their own country, where their forefather's fight for the freedom of this land while the others especially the chinese just wait and watch and most of them are busy joining the Bintang Tiga.
Now they dreamt into making Malaysia the second Singapore. No doubt at all.
Chinese are a very opportunistic people.
They themselves admitted that they thought the Malays and other race in this country are slower than them, thus making it easy for them to snatch whatever is in front of them.
It is the same if one were to compared on how they choose their food. They'll grab and eat everything that moves. Whatever. And we know that the only thing straight about the chinese is their hair.
I do not say this by copying publicly known facts instead I know this because I befriended them. I have been into their families and houses and i feel more comfortable with them rather than my own race.
I know their culture, what they expect in love and lives, how they feel and what they plan to do for their future undertakings.
90% of them doesn't have loyalty to this country.
90% of them wanted to be citizen in another country.
History has told us how the opportunistic chinese managed to raised from just being coolies in Singapore to what they are now. This a a very dangerous species of human kind. They will do anything and everything to get to what they dream getting or even fighting for their rights when they don't have much to fight.
They are the Asian jews.
The Malays will be doomed by this race.
Like how doomed the Malays economically in their own land.
WHY DONT YOU FEEL TIRED
WHY DON'T I DO SOMETHING - Che Det
I wonder why Dr M aren't tired with all this bashing thing.
To me this is like endless battle.
Abdullah behaving like one deaf and dumb and he wont step down from his position until he is removed by his Master Puppeteer. Well, his Master Puppeteers might be his beloved son-in-law or his own son.
It cannot be Jeanne. And thank God he got only these two. Wonder what happens to the country if he got more than two.
I read all the time about battling some sort of sickness relentlessly. But fighting stupidity? Nah, not for me.
But then again, that is why i am not a politician. I cannot tolerate stupidity and cannot fight with words.
My type of fight is action.
If i am a politician, then i will be dispelled from my party;for example UMNO. Because in UMNO one cannot mentioned of dissatisfaction towards their eldest. This party is operating more like a cult.
Members got to be obedient and cannot questions the integrity of party leader(s).
So, why bother, Dr M.
I wonder why Dr M aren't tired with all this bashing thing.
To me this is like endless battle.
Abdullah behaving like one deaf and dumb and he wont step down from his position until he is removed by his Master Puppeteer. Well, his Master Puppeteers might be his beloved son-in-law or his own son.
It cannot be Jeanne. And thank God he got only these two. Wonder what happens to the country if he got more than two.
I read all the time about battling some sort of sickness relentlessly. But fighting stupidity? Nah, not for me.
But then again, that is why i am not a politician. I cannot tolerate stupidity and cannot fight with words.
My type of fight is action.
If i am a politician, then i will be dispelled from my party;for example UMNO. Because in UMNO one cannot mentioned of dissatisfaction towards their eldest. This party is operating more like a cult.
Members got to be obedient and cannot questions the integrity of party leader(s).
So, why bother, Dr M.
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